Former Acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf and CNN anchor Brianna Keilar debate the fatal ICE-involved shooting in Minneapolis this week. “I think what is clear here is this idea that somehow we’ve gotten into that it’s OK to block a law enforcement operation,” Wolf said on Friday. “That it’s OK. to ignore lawful commands. That it’s OK to evade arrest and that it’s OK to simply drive your car anywhere you want to, including into an officer. I mean, that that’s what these folks are doing here, and it’s becoming obviously very, very dangerous.”

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Joined now by Chad Wolf, former acting Homeland Security Secretary under President Trump. He’s also the executive vice president of the America First Policy Institute. Chad, there are a few new things in this video that we’re seeing, including just a close-up of this interaction between the ICE officer and Renee Good. What did you make of her demeanor there that you see before the shooting? CHAD WOLF, FORMER ACTING HOMELAND SECURITY SECY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I think there’s a lot of interesting parts to to the video. One is obviously, you know, she’s an activist. They’re there to monitor ICE, get in front of ICE, disrupt ICE operations. She also did not, you know, adhere to the officers command to get out of the car as soon as — as far as the video concerns — as soon as he says, please get out of the car. She reverses and then and then goes forward. So there’s a variety of different things. You know, we saw all of this from other camera angles, but as you indicated, you could actually hear the dialog now. KEILAR: Was there an alternative to shooting her after she didn’t comply with that command? WOLF: Well, I don’t know. Obviously, I’m not on scene there. You know, the officers got to make a split second decision on whether his life was in danger and then he can use appropriate force as he deems necessary. The totality of the circumstances really matter in this case, a variety of things. I think they it’s been reported that they had observed this car and this individual. earlier in the day or in the days prior doing similar types of things as well. So there’s a lot going on here instead of just, you know, taking a snapshot of one camera at one period of time. There’s a lot of facts and a lot of circumstances that go on here. But I think what is clear here is this idea that somehow we’ve gotten into that it’s OK to block a law enforcement operation. That it’s OK. to ignore lawful commands. That it’s OK to evade arrest and that it’s OK to simply drive your car anywhere you want to, including into an officer. I mean, that that’s what these folks are doing here, and it’s becoming obviously very, very dangerous. KEILAR: Yes, look, reasonable questions. Is a reasonable question also to ask if it’s OK to shoot someone if they do those things. WOLF: Well, sure, I think you can ask the question, but again, I think there’s a lot of case law that will back up law enforcement to say in split second decisions that you have to make. And if you see a vehicle coming at you and you believe that your life is in danger, then you can take the appropriate action. Look, it should have never been in this case, you know, Mayor Frey should allow ICE — local law enforcement to cooperate with ICE. This individual should have never been in the middle of the street blocking a law enforcement operation. She should have adhered to the commands of the law enforcement officers and obviously not backed up her car and tried to evade arrest. There’s a variety of things that should have been done differently in this case. KEILAR: And certainly training gets to these issues where you have situations that are difficult. I do want to get your reaction on something that former ICE Deputy Chief of Staff John Amaya said on our program. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN AMAYA, FORMER ICE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Generally speaking, it is policy guidance department wide that officers don’t chase vehicles. It is also policy that officers do not shoot at vehicles to either stop them or slowing — slow them down. Unless, like the general policy for use of deadly force, there’s imminent danger or threat, and there is no reasonable alternative. In other words, if the officer could have just jumped out of the way and let the car pass, that’s what he should have done. (END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Was stepping out of the way the vehicle a reasonable alternative in your view? WOLF: Yes, again, I don’t think that everything that was just articulated there is correct. You can, you know, you can go after individuals if they try to abscond in a vehicle so that that policy has been changed. Look, again, I’m not there on the ground — KEILAR: Explain how it’s been changed. WOLF: — and so trying to understand where the — (CROSSTALK) KEILAR: Can you explain that? You said we can go after the vehicles that policy has been — Chad, you said you can go after people in vehicles if they abscond. WOLF: Absolutely, Border Patrol — (CROSSTALK) KEILAR: Can you explain how that’s been changed? WOLF: — for example, Border Patrol. Sure, absolutely. Border Patrol along the border gets into high-speed chases all the time, all the time. You know, drug runners and others trying to — KEILAR: OK, we’re in Minneapolis in the middle of a city. Can you apply that into an urban environment? (CROSSTALK) WOLF: Absolutely you can. Absolutely you can. And again, I’m not there on the ground, so I’m not going to try to second guess what a law enforcement officer is thinking. What’s — what is he hearing? What is he feeling at the moment? Again, you can — you can play Monday morning quarterback all the time and say, well, from this angle and this angle in this angle, you weren’t there. We have — we weren’t there. We don’t know what took place and everything else. And just — we heard from Secretary Noem. That earlier in the day there have been three other car rammings, right? All of this is being communicated to these officers. Is this a coordinated event? He doesn’t know what else is in that vehicle, so there’s a lot of things that are going on here, all in real time in a matter of seconds. And so I think this is what the investigation will play out. Will say, did he take the appropriate force or not? My view based off of limited video that I have seen, including the new video, it appears as though he did take appropriate force. But again, I will let the investigation play out. KEILAR: When he shoots through the side of the window where the car is no longer heading towards him, the car bumped him, right? And then he is no longer in danger of being bumped and he shoots through the side of the window. The car cannot obviously make contact with him at that point. Is that DHS policy to shoot into a vehicle through a side window that can’t make contact with you? Is that permissible? WOLF: I really don’t know what you’re describing there. I see the vehicle hit him. You describe it as a bump. I think again — KEILAR: No this — I have the picture up right now. Do you see? WOLF: I was there. You’re not there. (CROSSTALK) KEILAR: Chad, just look at your — no, no, Chad, you — WOLF: No, I don’t have the return feed, so I can’t see that. KEILAR: Chad, you’ve seen this picture. I’m sure he’s shooting in his second or third shot. He is actually to the side of the vehicle, shooting in the side window. He’s not in front of the car. Is that permissible conduct — WOLF: OK. Right. KEILAR: — for discharging a firearm for DHS for ICE? WOLF: Well, I’m going to let ICE answer that. I don’t — yes, I’m going to let ICE answer that because again, this is based on a totality of circumstances that are going on there. If what you’re asking me is, can they only shoot through a front windshield, you know, windshield and not a side windshield? Again, it doesn’t work like that. The requirements are not laid out there because there’s a variety of things that are happening in real time. And so this idea that on video we’re going to try to Monday morning quarterback this thing because we’ve broken it down into 27 different frames at the same time. This all happened probably in two to three seconds, and so again, lawful commands were giving to an individual who ignored them and decided to not only back up her vehicle, but then to lurch forward at an officer. And he made a split second decision to protect himself. KEILAR: I want to listen to something the vice president said yesterday. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATE: What that headline leaves out is the fact that very off ICE officer nearly had his life ended, dragged by a car six months ago, 33 stitches in his leg. So you think maybe he’s a little bit sensitive about somebody ramming him with an automobile? (END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Just to be clear, it was 100 yards, which is significantly more, 33 total stitches in the arm, a little less, and it was the arm in hand, so different body part, to be clear. But, I mean, despite that, the point the vice president makes about the effect of that experience on the officer, I think, for many, would reasonably stand. Are you concerned that some ICE officers are not receiving adequate services to help them serve effectively after undergoing traumatic experiences on the job? WOLF: I don’t think so, no. Look, any officer that has been in the line of duty for a number of years is going to have the totality of their experiences and what they see and what they hear. What, you know, obviously doesn’t get communicated a lot. But again, we heard Secretary Noem talk about it over 100 vehicle rammings. What I believe ICE and CBP and others are seeing is a coordinated effort by activists and others that want to interfere with ICE operations to use their vehicle as a means to do so. And so that is going into the mindset of ICE officers as well as when they go out into the field. They have to be aware not only of weapons, not only of firearms, but other weapons, but also the vehicle as a weapon as well. And when lawful commands are given and lawful commands are decided to be ignored because they think it’s fun to try to break up ICE operations. We would not allow this in any other law enforcement, you know, capacity, any other agency, any other municipal law enforcement. You would be — it just doesn’t happen. But somehow because we have local officials — KEILAR: But would you be shot? WOLF: — with very incendiary rhetoric — KEILAR: You said you’d be arrested. Would you be shot? WOLF: — telling these folks that they’re propaganda that they are not — KEILAR: Chad, you’re saying it wouldn’t be allowed. You’re saying it wouldn’t be allowed. WOLF: — that they should be allowed in the city. KEILAR: I mean, that’s entirely reasonable. WOLF: That incentivizes — KEILAR: And then you said you’d be arrested. Would you be shot? WOLF: It is not entirely reasonable to drive your vehicle — (CROSSTALK) KEILAR: I’m no, I’m saying what you’re saying — I said what you’re saying is reasonable — WOLF: — at an officer. I said it is not entirely reasonable. (CROSSTALK) KEILAR: Chad, I said what you’re saying. WOLF: The fact that you are saying that it is entirely reasonable — KEILAR: No, I didn’t say that. I said what you’re saying is reasonable, that that would not be permissible. So please do not mistake my words. I said, you were saying that would not be allowed. I said, that is reasonable. And you said that would not be allowed. And then you started to say you would be arrested, but then you stopped and you changed tack. And I said, so you would be arrested. Would you be shot? WOLF: If your vehicle is driving at an officer and the officer fears for their life, They are able to use the appropriate amount of force that they deem necessary. KEILAR: Did you see her turning the wheel or that doesn’t matter? (CROSSTALK) WOLF: That doesn’t just apply to ICE. That applies to any local law enforcement. And in fact, if you go back to Chicago, the police commissioner there in Chicago several weeks or months ago actually gave an interview where he said it’s not appropriate for people to drive vehicles at officers, that that puts their lives at danger. And any law enforcement officer that believes that their life is in danger can use the appropriate force. This isn’t — this isn’t difficult. People should not drive their vehicle at law enforcement officers. KEILAR: Yes, I mean, I’m not making that point, Chad, but I appreciate you being here talking to us about this. Chad Wolf, thank you so much. WOLF: Yes, thanks.

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