PBS NEWSHOUR: David Brooks of The Atlantic and Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW join William Brangham to discuss the week in politics, including the Trump administration pulling ICE back from Minnesota, European leaders reckoning with a new world order and parts of the U.S. government are about to shut down, again.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM, PBS NEWSHOUR: I want to quickly pivot to what’s happening overseas. We have been seeing some of Nick’s tremendous reporting from the Munich Security Conference, where European leaders are grappling with this idea that America is not what America was. And, Jonathan, when you look at this, how they are reckoning with it and how Trump and his administration is pressing their case to the Europeans, how do you see that playing out? JONATHAN CAPEHART, MS NOW: Well, I think the Europeans are right to look at the United States and think, you know what, we should probably not depend on them as much. We should come up with contingency plans, because the United States is no longer a trusted friend, trusted ally. In many instances — take, for instance, Greenland — it’s become an adversary. And their wariness is not new. Four years ago, Vice President Harris went to the Munich Security Conference, gave a speech, and the first question to her from the president of the Munich Security Conference was, President Biden said America is back, but, Madam Vice President, the question is, for how long? And now the Europeans have seen the answer to that question. So they’re absolutely right to be skittish, weary, whatever synonym Mr. Thesaurus will throw out there. BRANGHAM: But, David, we have seen some instances where European leaders have acknowledged that some of the things that Trump has pressed them to do, like to not rely on the United States as much, they are saying, some of them overtly, Trump is right. We do need to shore our own defenses up. DAVID BROOKS, NEW YORK TIMES: There’s always a kernel of truth in every attack Trump makes until he overreacts and destroys. And I have said, you go to Trump — Trump is like — governs like, you go to the doctor saying, I have acne, and he says, OK, we will decapitate you. That will solve your acne. [LAUGHTER] And that’s what he does. He overreacts and destroys. And the difference is, somebody made — I think it was the German leader this week said, we have shared interests still, but we don’t have shared values. And I think that’s the right distinction to make, because Trump fundamentally sees the world, not as the Western alliance, which has been built since 1945. He sees the world as regional hegemons. And that’s just not how Europe sees the world. And so Trump sees Russia over here, their hegemon, China’s over there, their hegemon, we’re a hegemon here in the Americas, and we get to rule our neighborhood. And the problem with that is that you’re asking for an invitation for bloodshed over and over and again. And I mentioned this on the “News Hour” about a month ago. If you go back to 2,000, there were about 15,000 people dying in a war all around the world. Since 2013, it’s been over 100,000 a year. That’s death. That’s death and violence caused by the destabilization of the American-led international order. And for people who don’t like that international order, wait until it goes away. BRANGHAM: I mean, I hear you. No one is here celebrating the idea that there’s additional death. Do you think, though, Jonathan, that there is any utility in Trump driving a wedge here that is help shoring up an alliance, maybe in the long run, that, when Trump is no longer here, that this will — might clarify our alliance with our allies? CAPEHART: I don’t — no, I don’t see it that way, in the way you pose it, because the way the Europeans are looking at the United States, it’s this international order that’s been eight decades running with the Western alliance, but the United States is the foundation of it. And so, without the United States being there as a trusted ally, then what does it mean? What does it stand for? And, great, they will spend more money on their defense, they will do all sorts of other things. But, to David’s point, if we’re not sharing the same values, if Europe looks at us, the United States, and says, they’re not like us, and so we need to just leave them out. In fact, hey, China, let’s talk to you about more deals, more collaboration.

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