Czech Foreign Minister Petr Macinka debated former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during a panel at the Munich Security Conference this weekend, telling her the truth about Donald Trump makes her “nervous.”

MODERATOR: Do you think that creates a new rift within the West – Ukraine, the U.S.’s position? HILLARY CLINTON: I think that the Trump administration’s position toward Ukraine is disgraceful. I think the effort to force Ukraine into a surrender deal with Putin is shameful. I think the effort that Putin and Trump are making to profit off the misery and death of the Ukrainian people is a historic error and corrupt to the n-th degree. So I believe Ukraine is fighting for our democracy and our values of freedom and civilization on the front lines, losing thousands of people and having their country destroyed by one man’s mania to control them. And I think Trump either doesn’t understand or could care less about that suffering. So that’s what I think. MODERATOR: And so do you think he has destroyed the West, to go to our title? HILLARY CLINTON: He has betrayed the West. He’s betrayed human values. He’s betrayed the NATO Charter, the Atlantic Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – a lot of what has been done before to try to make sense of how difficult it is to restrain people who want unaccountable power. And none of us in this room, including all of us on this panel, would choose to live under a regime that was so unaccountable that it could act with impunity the way that Putin does. Except that’s who Trump is modeling himself on. I MODERATOR: I don’t think we would be having this debate under that kind of regime. For sure. We will come back, I suspect, to the conservatism and liberalism clash within the West, but thank you for that. Petr, do you agree that the Trump administration’s actions on Ukraine have produced a rift in the West? CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: Well, first, I think you really don’t like him. HILLARY CLINTON: That is absolutely true. But really, not only do I not like him – I don’t like him because of what he’s doing to the United States and the world. And I think you should take a hard look at it if you think that there is something good that will come out of that. CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: What I think Trump is doing in America, I think it is a reaction – a reaction for some policies that really went too far, too far from the regular people, too far from reality. HILLARY CLINTON: Like what? Give us an example? CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: We saw cancel culture. We saw the woke revolution. I don’t agree with the gender revolution, the climate alarmism – HILLARY CLINTON: Which gender? Women having their rights? MODERATOR: No, let Peter go on. CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: I think there are two genders. But some of us think that there is more than two genders. I think there is male and female, and the rest probably is a social construct. So this is something that went too far. HILLARY CLINTON: But does that justify selling out the people of Ukraine, who are on the front lines dying to save their freedom and their two genders, if that’s what you’re worried about? CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: Can I please finish my point? I’m sorry that that makes you nervous. I’m really sorry for that. HILLARY CLINTON: It doesn’t make me nervous, it makes me– MODERATOR: Can we let Peter finish, please? CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: I have to say one more thing. You said that Ukraine fights for our future and for our freedom. I think, first, Ukraine fights for Ukraine’s future, Ukraine’s freedom, and Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence. So we should help them, of course. But what I see in some people in the West is that they are trying to misuse help for Ukraine. But that’s another question. I don’t know if Trump’s administration is helping Ukraine to stop the war. I believe that there is such an approach. I don’t see any other strong geopolitical player who would be able to force Russia to stop killing the Ukrainian people and stop destroying their country. Maybe China – but China is doing nothing. I don’t know if the pressure, if Trump is forcing Russia in a way that they will stop the war. I don’t know. I only see that only the Americans, right at the moment, can make it. I see the dialogue. MODERATOR: Do you think Europe could put more pressure on Russia – for example, by putting pressure on Turkey, by targeting oil refineries more, and so on? CZECH FOREIGN MINISTER PETR MACINKA: I think Europe also makes some pressure. We release sanctions. We do what we can. But I think the Russians probably don’t care. When I visited Ukraine, I saw the goodwill of all the people in Ukraine. They were really united and willing to stop the war. But they keep fighting. It seems they also made some steps that probably a year ago no one from then would have allowed to say or even suggest. Now they are ready to make some steps back. Now the ball is on the Russian side. But I don’t see any goodwill on their side. So indeed, we probably are agreed on that.

Here’s the full discussion:
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