University of Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer, in an interview Friday with Charlie Rose, discussed why military force can not turn foreign countries into liberal democracies. “I believe that if you pursue a policy of liberal hegemony-if you try to push liberalism down the throats of other countries and you do it at the end of a rifle barrel-you end up fighting wars all the time,” he said. “You end up with a heavily militarized state, and I believe that that undermines liberal democracy.” “So I actually have this very paradoxical view, which is that promoting liberal democracy around the world undermines liberal democracy at home,” Mearsheimer said. “One of the main reasons liberal democracy is in so much trouble at home is because we have had this highly militaristic foreign policy, which undermines liberal democracy!” “I think the Founding Fathers understood this completely. They were adamantly opposed to us running around the world slaying monsters,” he said. “But nevertheless, here we are.”

JOHN MEARSHEIMER, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PROFESSOR: I am not opposed to liberalism at all. And as far as I’m concerned, if every country on the planet decided that it wanted to become a liberal democracy, that would be wonderful. CHARLIE ROSE: That would be wonderful in your judgment. You just don’t think that the United States should go about trying to create that as an aspect of its foreign policy. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Yes, especially when it comes to forcing liberal democracy down the throats of other countries. And let me just tell you very quickly, Charlie, what my basic logic is here. I believe that the most powerful political ideology on the planet is not liberalism-it’s nationalism. And I believe that the world is populated by nothing but nation-states. If you look at the globe today, you see nation-states everywhere, and the whole concept of a nation-state is the embodiment of nationalism. What nationalism is really all about is sovereignty and self-determination. The people in countries-whether it’s Iran, Israel, the United States, Nigeria, you name it-all of these countries want to determine what their politics look like for themselves. They don’t want another country coming in and telling them how to run their political system. You remember how upset we got when there was all this talk about Russian interference in the election between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It was just unacceptable to most Americans to even think about the possibility that a foreign country would interfere in our politics. That’s nationalism. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and states all over the world feel this way. So if you get into the business of trying to export liberal democracy in a forceful or heavy-handed way-which is exactly what we did during the unipolar moment-there’s going to be a wicked backlash. And this is one of the principal reasons that liberal hegemony failed. It was because we tried to push liberal democracy down other states’ throats, and the end result was a backlash. Now I want to make one very important additional point. I believe that if you pursue a policy of liberal hegemony-if you try to push liberalism down the throats of other countries and you do it at the end of a rifle barrel-you end up fighting wars all the time. You end up with a heavily militarized state, and I believe that that undermines liberal democracy. So I actually have this very paradoxical view, which is that promoting liberal democracy around the world undermines liberal democracy at home. And I believe that one of the main reasons liberal democracy is in so much trouble at home is because we have had this highly militaristic foreign policy, which undermines liberal democracy! I think the Founding Fathers understood this completely. They were adamantly opposed to us running around the world slaying monsters. But nevertheless, here we are. CHARLIE ROSE: I think about it-the leadership of certain countries. Xi Jinping in China, Vladimir Putin in Russia, Orban is running for re-election, but it looks like he’s behind at the moment. And you’ve spent some time with him. What do you think of them? JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, as you say, I’ve met Orban twice, and once I had a three-hour one-on-one conversation with him. And he’s not a liberal democrat. CHARLIE ROSE: No. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, he would argue that he is an illiberal democrat. He hates liberalism because he is interested in running a state that privileges Hungarian ethnicity. He doesn’t believe in equal rights for everyone. He doesn’t believe in open borders where anyone can come into Hungary. He wants a state called Hungary that is populated almost exclusively by ethnic Hungarians. And that’s why he describes himself as an illiberal democrat. The democracy part-he would argue, and I think reasonably convincingly-that he is in favor of democracy. And in fact, as you know, he might very well lose the upcoming election. CHARLIE ROSE: Well, he’s way behind, as I understand. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: He is behind. That’s right. And if he loses, he will leave office. So he would argue-and I think you can make the case-that Hungary is a democratic state. It’s not a liberal democracy. And by the way, going back to our earlier discussion about nationalism, he is a nationalist par excellence. CHARLIE ROSE: Most people are nationalists. Most people love their country. Am I wrong about that? JOHN MEARSHEIMER: No, but the question is-just take the United States. They’re nationalists. They believe in the welfare of their country. CHARLIE ROSE: Sure. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Trump captures this with America First, right? What person in any country is not going to put their country first? If you’re in Belgium, you have a Belgium-first policy. But the question is: what does your body politic look like? In other words, think about Hungary compared to the United States. There’s no ethnic nationalism in the United States. We’re a smorgasbord of different kinds of people. We have all sorts of different backgrounds because we’ve had one wave of immigrants after another. CHARLIE ROSE: Absolutely. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: That’s right. And as I often tell graduate students from China or Eastern Europe: come here, get a PhD, and we’ll make you Americans. You can easily become an American. CHARLIE ROSE: The idea was come here, get a PhD, and then we’ll stamp a visa on your diploma. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I would say don’t stamp a visa-make them an American citizen. Immigration is what made America great. There’s just no getting around that. CHARLIE ROSE: Do you think Donald Trump would say that? JOHN MEARSHEIMER: No, and he’s remarkably foolish in that regard. CHARLIE ROSE: Ronald Reagan would-and did. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Yes, I think that’s right. But look, here’s the basic problem that we face, Charlie. We have a declining birth rate like almost every country around the world. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, especially China. JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Yes, especially South Korea and Japan. But here’s the key: because we’re an immigrant society, we can deal with this problem by bringing in people. Let them come to the United States-they want to come. We know this from illegal immigration. As I was saying to somebody the other day, people like you and me-we’re all descendants of people who came across the Atlantic Ocean. The only difference between our ancestors and people trying to get in today is that our ancestors came legally, and many today come illegally. But everyone comes because they want to be part of the American dream. They see this as a place where you can build a better life. So we have no problem attracting people. What this means is that the demographic problem that most countries face is not as significant for us. All we have to do is open the gates and let immigrants come in.
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