Sen. Mark Kelly (D-AZ), in an interview with MS NOW host Rachel Maddow, reacts to Secretary of War Pete Hegseth’s announcement of plans to demote his military rank and decrease his pension.

RACHEL MADDOW, MS NOW HOST:  Quote, “Over 25 years in the U.S. Navy, 39 combat missions and four missions to space, I risked my life for this country and to defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment rights of every American to speak out. I never expected that the president of the United States and the secretary of defense would attack me for doing exactly that. Pete Hegseth wants to send the message to every single retired service member that if they say something he or Donald Trump doesn’t like, they will come after them the same way. It is outrageous and it’s wrong. There’s nothing more American than that”. Statement today from retired Navy captain and United States Senator Mark Kelly after Trump Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced today that he is moving to demote Senator Kelly from his retirement rank in the Navy and also moving to cut his retirement pay, all because of Senator Kelly’s true and uncontroversial legal public statements that U.S. service members can and indeed must refuse illegal orders. Joining us now live is Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Senator, I thank you so much for being with us tonight. I know this has been a heck of a day. SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ):  It — well, thank you for having me on. MADDOW:  Let me ask, first of all, just your reaction to Secretary Hegseth’s announcement today that he is moving ahead with trying to demote you and dock your pay for having advised military service members that they should obey their oath and refuse illegal orders. KELLY:  Well, I’m surprised that they’re continuing down this path in taking, you know, these steps to try to silence me, silence other members of Congress, silence retired members of the military, former service members, really silenced the American people. I mean, this isn’t only about me. This is about all of us. And — I mean, this started back in November when we put out that video and Donald Trump said, I should be hanged, I should be executed, prosecuted. And then, Pete Hegseth ran with that and said he was going to court -martial me. And — and so, today, we’re at the point where I guess they realized they wouldn’t do well with a jury in a court martial. So, they’re just going to go on their own and try to demote me after 25 years of service in the United States Navy. But here’s the thing, Rachel — I’m never going to back down from these guys. I’m going to continue to speak out. I’m going to continue to do my job. And as much as I can highlight how wrong these people are and how outrageous this is and how dangerous. So, I’m not going away. This is just one step in this — this process. And I would — I think it’s fair to say it’s a big one. MADDOW:  I’m — I’m struck by the way this does and doesn’t fit the pattern of other acts taken by the Trump administration in this past year. They have taken different types of acts of retribution against people who they see as their political opponents or their political rivals or their critics running the gamut. Everybody from members of the board of the Fed, to other elected officials, to indictments of former Trump administration officials. And so, it seems to fit that sort of pattern in one way. But with you, there’s also the substance of the matter, which is why they’re going after you, by their own admission, which is advising service members that they do not need to and indeed they must not disobey illegal orders. Do you think this is part of something they are trying to fundamentally change in the military, in terms of the way the president uses the military, the way he orders them to act, and the kinds of expectations we have for ethical and lawful behavior by U.S. service members? KELLY:  Well, could be — could be partly that. I think the bigger thing here is Donald Trump didn’t like what I said, and he was so struck by it. And in some ways, you know, maybe I, you know, hurt his ego in a way that, you know, he now is starting to understand that, you know, members of the military don’t have blind loyalty to him. He should know this. He’s the commander in chief. He’s been president before. The loyalty is to the Constitution, not to a person. And, you know, he — he didn’t like that. And, you know, he — he did what he normally does, which is opens his mouth before he thinks and then doubles down on it. And these are dangerous words, because if he can get me to shut up — I mean, I’m a U.S. senator. I was an astronaut. I spent, you know, four trips in space. I flew 39 combat missions. If he’s successful in getting me to not speak out against him or the government or Pete Hegseth or whoever and not do my job — I mean, what does — you know, what does that say to all these other retired and ex-service members? What rights do they have anymore? And this extends even beyond that. I think if they’re successful in — and by the way, Rachel, they’re not going to be successful in ever shutting me up. That doesn’t mean — I could — they could go as far as they possibly can go with that. That’s not going to happen. But if they can, you know, punish me in a — in a significant way, that’s going to silence other critics of the government. And that is a foundational problem for our constitutional democracy. MADDOW:  Senator, we’re — this is happening at a time when the military and the government are making — are doing incredibly controversial things, including this invasion, this action in Venezuela. You’re on the Armed Services Committee, clearly. Do you have clarity as to why the administration did what it did in Venezuela this weekend? KELLY:  No. Absolutely not. I mean, we don’t yet. We’ll have a brief this week. I’ll be back in Washington tomorrow morning and we’ll — you know, my expectation is we’ll get a brief from Pete Hegseth, from Marco Rubio. We’ll see what they’re going to share. Usually when we get these briefs, we walk out of the secure facility with more questions than we walked in with. They often share what seems like a lot of nonsense with us, you know, legal arguments that don’t make any sense, you know, half-truths. I mean, you pointed out today that seems like the president may have been even lying about his conversations with oil executives. Is this about oil? I don’t know if it’s about oil. I mean, initially it was about fentanyl — you know, fentanyl coming from Venezuela. And then it turns out they found out — well, it’s not fentanyl because fentanyl is not trafficked out of Venezuela. So, there was about cocaine. And then it was about regime change, and then it was about oil. And then it went back to a police action with regime change. And now it’s back to — oh, we’re going to run this country. You know, by the way, the president says we’re running the country. We’re not running the country. There’s — there’s nobody there to run the country. Maduro’s hand-picked successor is running the country. I worry about what happens next. I mean, what are the — what are the next steps at this president is going to take to, you know, try to show that he is as tough as he wants everybody to believe he is. And when he realizes he’s not running the country, and maybe the oil executives aren’t as interested as he thought they may have been with oil at $ 60 a barrel, what does he do then? And how many service members wind up having their lives at risk because of, you know, this president’s ego and ambition? MADDOW:  That’s exactly right. Exactly right. Arizona senator and retired Navy captain, Mark Kelly, thank you for putting your finger on it exactly. I know this is a crazy time for you. I appreciate you making time to be here with us tonight. KELLY:  Thank you. MADDOW:  All right. More news ahead here tonight. Stay with us.

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