In an interview today on “Deadline: White House,” MS NOW host Nicolle Wallace spoke with former CIA Director and MS NOW Senior National Security and Intelligence Analyst John Brennan on his lawsuit against Donald Trump and the Justice Department. Brennan said he is going on the “offensive” against Trump because it may be him today, but it could be you tomorrow: “People have to stand up because it’s John Brennan today, but it’s going to be, I think, many others tomorrow.” Brennan accused Trump of using the authority of the Department of Justice to engage against opponents he considers “his enemies.” “Clearly, over these last 18 months, it’s not just me, it’s other individuals as well,” Brennan said. “It’s Jerome Powell. It’s Jim Comey. It’s others, Letitia James, who have also been targeted. And most egregiously, he’s not just condemning us publicly with his rhetoric, he is leveraging the tremendous authorities of the Department of Justice in very corrupt, unethical, and, I would argue, illegal ways to use those authorities to launch these investigations against individuals.” <\/p>\n
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: \u00a0Sometimes intelligence is good and sometimes you look at Comey and you look at Brennan and you look at Clapper, and I’m supposed to believe that intelligence? \u00a0I never believed that intelligence. \u00a0 You look at Brennan and you look at Clapper and you got some real beauties. \u00a0 Well, I think Brennan’s a sick person. \u00a0 MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX HOST: \u00a0How involved was John Brennan? \u00a0 TRUMP: \u00a0Totally involved. \u00a0He was totally involved. \u00a0John Brennan was one of the architects, in my opinion. \u00a0 (END VIDEO CLIP) NICOLLE WALLACE, HOST: \u00a0Hi, again, everybody. \u00a0It’s now 5:00 in the East. \u00a0Suffice to say, he has been obsessed for years now. \u00a0Trump has been attacking and criticizing former Director of the CIA John Brennan for years. \u00a0Going after him seems to be one of Trump’s greatest obsessions. \u00a0But these are not just hollow sneers and complaints. \u00a0Trump has weaponized the government he now leads to go after his perceived opponent. \u00a0 Today marks a significant development in that story. \u00a0Director Brennan is today going on the offense. \u00a0But first, a quick refresher. \u00a0 Director Brennan, following decades of public service in the CIA, served as the agency’s director from 2013 to 2017, during those years under President Barack Obama. \u00a0The director became a target of Donald Trump’s, ostensibly for his role in the intelligence assessment that stated that Russia interfered in the 2016 election with the aim of helping Donald Trump win. \u00a0 Since then, Donald Trump has railed against John Brennan, as well as others involved in that assessment. \u00a0He has revoked John Brennan’s security clearance, and two investigations have been launched into the former director of the CIA. \u00a0 One is over allegations that Director Brennan lied to Congress in 2023 about the intelligence assessment. \u00a0It was a referral from the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Trump ally, Jim Jordan. \u00a0The other is a case that Brennan is part of some sort of grand conspiracy that Karoline Leavitt has talked about from the podium of the White House Briefing Room to keep Trump out of office. \u00a0Brennan has denied any wrongdoing in both cases. \u00a0 Today, Director Brennan, who is an NS NOW senior national security and intelligence analyst, is joining us for an exclusive interview to discuss his latest move, which is to sue Donald Trump and the Justice Department. \u00a0Director Brennan has asked a judge to force DoJ to preserve all of its records. From that lawsuit, quote, Administration officials, from the acting attorney general to the FBI director and the counselor overseeing the Brennan investigations, have been publicly declaring Director Brennan a criminal, not only before securing a conviction in court, but even before a full investigation and indictment. \u00a0And certain officials in the Department of Justice are engaging in demonstrably irregular prosecutorial activity in order to gin up a case that will satisfy the president’s direction. \u00a0 Director Brennan expects that he will forcefully challenge any eventual indictment as the product of an unconstitutionally vindictive and selective prosecution. \u00a0Given the government’s questionable recent history with respect to its record preservation and other legal obligations, however, Director Brennan has a well-founded concern that those records and communications will not be preserved until such time as the court can review them for evidence of unconstitutional vindictiveness. \u00a0 About Brennan’s lawsuit, The New York Times writes this, quote, The request for a judicial order requiring officials to keep records about a case that has not even been filed was somewhat unusual, and yet it reflected just how abnormal Trump’s revenge campaign has become in recent months. \u00a0As the president’s attempts to use the courts to go after his adversaries have become more aggressive, so too have the reciprocal efforts by defense lawyers who have sought to fight the inquiries at at ever earlier stages of the investigative process. \u00a0 Firing back at Donald Trump’s revenge campaign is where we begin this hour with former Director of the CIA John Brennan. \u00a0 Thank you for being here and having this conversation with us. \u00a0 JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: \u00a0Absolutely, Nicolle, thanks for having me on. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0So what made you sort of take a different legal strategy? \u00a0Because the facts have always been the same. \u00a0And I just want to ask you to go over the facts of the — of the smears and the alleged investigations into you as they’ve been unearthed by Trump ally John Durham, by Marco Rubio, who was a senator in charge of the Intelligence Committee when it comes to that 2016 intelligence assessment. \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Yeah. \u00a0Well, Nicolle, clearly I didn’t come to the decision to launch this lawsuit against the Trump administration, President Trump, and the Department of Justice lightly. \u00a0But as you and I have talked numerous times over the past 18 months, Donald Trump has been engaged in this campaign to punish individuals he considers his enemies. \u00a0And I am being targeted by Donald Trump because I fulfilled my obligations in 2016 as director of the CIA to expose Russian interference in that presidential election of that year. \u00a0 And it was an intelligence committee assessment that was put out by the FBI, CIA, NSA, and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence that chronicled exactly what Vladimir Putin and the Russians were doing. \u00a0Well, obviously, Donald Trump didn’t like that. \u00a0But also he has condemned me because I have spoken out publicly since I left office when I see the things that Donald Trump is doing are wrongheaded or that are just reflecting, I think, the incompetence as well as the corruption of his administration. \u00a0 So clearly, over these last 18 months, it’s not just me, it’s other individuals as well. \u00a0It’s Jerome Powell. \u00a0It’s Jim Comey. \u00a0It’s others, Letitia James, who have also been targeted. \u00a0And most egregiously, he’s not just condemning us publicly with his rhetoric, he is leveraging the tremendous authorities of the Department of Justice in very corrupt, unethical, and, I would argue, illegal ways to use those authorities to launch these investigations against individuals. \u00a0 Now, there are two grand jury investigations underway in the Southern District of Florida, where I have been subpoenaed. \u00a0I have complied completely with the requests from the government, despite the speciousness of these investigations and the lack of any evidence indicating any wrongdoing on my part. \u00a0 But I have come to believe in talking to my lawyers that we can’t trust the Department of Justice to carry out its duties in a manner that it has done over the past centuries, in terms of a presumption of regularity, that the courts will give the Department of Justice and U.S. government the presumption that it is carrying out its obligations responsibly and with integrity. \u00a0But it has not, in terms of forum-shopping and judge-shopping and, you know, having individuals and — and professional prosecutors who have resigned rather than pursue investigations that have no basis in fact. \u00a0 So if they’re doing this, I also am concerned, and my lawyers are very concerned, that any type of records that might in fact expose what they are doing are not being kept. \u00a0They have, you know, openly, you know, decried or — or have condemned the the obligations to fulfill their obligations under the Presidential Records Act. \u00a0They are using different apps to conceal their messaging, like Signal app, things are automatically deleted. \u00a0And this is in contravention of long-held requirements that the government is supposed to keep these records. \u00a0 So, again, it looks as though with the appointment of Joe diGenova and continued investigations and, you know, the effort under way in Florida that there could be an indictment of me despite whatever speciousness under — undergirds it. \u00a0And so we don’t want to wait until that point. \u00a0And so this is a lawsuit that basically compels — is asking the court to compel the government to preserve all those records that they have within the Department of Justice, White House, other agencies that relate at all to the investigations into me, so that if, in fact, there is some effort here to circumvent the law and to abuse the authorities, the Justice Department, it will be available to the court if, in fact, there is going to be this indictment. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0Don’t you already have a smoking gun in the things Donald Trump has said about you? \u00a0I mean, tell me what the records would — would prove. \u00a0And is it that your lawyers will argue that, should you be indicted, it’s all a vindictive prosecution? \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Yes. \u00a0Well, as we all know, in the Southern District of Florida, a very competent, respected, professional prosecutor either stepped aside or was pushed aside because she was not willing… WALLACE: \u00a0Yeah. BRENNAN: \u00a0… to go forward with an indictment or any type of effort to try to obtain an indictment from a grand jury. \u00a0And they said — reportedly, she said, there’s no evidence there to support such indictment. \u00a0And we also see that this has been shopped around, and the complaint makes clear, you know, in different districts, whether it be in Virginia or in Pennsylvania. \u00a0And it’s clearly that there is not a appetite on the part of those Department of Justice employees who continue to adhere to their obligations. \u00a0 But it’s not stopped Donald Trump and the Department of Justice. \u00a0And so, again, the fact that this investigation is still ongoing, and there was just a recent, you know, press reporting about what diGenova’s team is doing in terms of, you know, additional interviews and people are being interviewed. \u00a0 And I’m not just doing this on behalf of myself. \u00a0Yes, I’m the sole target of these two investigations down in Florida. \u00a0But I’m doing it on behalf of others who are being harassed and who are being subjected to the same type of of punishment and condemnation. \u00a0And we have to stand up against Donald Trump and the abuses of authority and the fact that the Department of Justice is being exploited in this way. \u00a0 So what I’m trying to do is, you know, align myself with those universities, those law firms, those individuals who really are pushing back. \u00a0And I realize that this is going to, you know, irritate the Department of Justice or the Trump administration, but it’s the right thing to do. \u00a0And I think in light of what’s going on in this country and all the abuses of power and all the corruption that is going on, people have to stand up because it’s John Brennan today, but it’s going to be, I think, many others tomorrow. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0A judge in the case of I think, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, found that it was essentially a crime declared and then reverse-engineered by Todd Blanche specifically. \u00a0Are you — what are you seeking from Todd Blanche and the Department of Justice? \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Well, again, what this — there’s a complaint and then there’s a preliminary motion for there to be an immediate sort of injunction that will, again, compel the government, the Department of Justice and other agencies that are noted in the complaint, to immediately preserve all records, all documents, emails, text messages, whatever else, correspondence that might have gone back and forth between the Department of Justice main and down in the Southern District of Florida, to preserve all of those records. \u00a0Because we are going to need them in the event that there is going to be some type of indictment or charges against me. \u00a0 I really want the — the courts to know that this is an effort that has been cooked up, again, as part of this punishment campaign that Donald Trump has engineered. \u00a0And the fact that you have individuals, unfortunately, his loyalists who are willing to go along with him, I am just so glad that there are still individuals of integrity within the Department of Justice, within the U.S. Attorney’s Offices, offices who are saying no. \u00a0You know, they’re saying, no, we’re not going to do this… WALLACE: \u00a0Yeah. BRENNAN: \u00a0… because it’s inconsistent, again, not only with their authorities, but also with American values. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0To your point about, you know, today you’re the target, Jim Comey obviously has been indicted. \u00a0Tish James has been harassed. \u00a0Jerome Powell has been investigated. \u00a0This is Reuters reporting about how many people Donald Trump envisions this happening to, at least 470 targets and counting. \u00a0 Quote, In his second term, Trump has turned a campaign pledge to punish political opponents into a guiding principle of governance. \u00a0A tally by Reuters reveals the scale, at least 470 people, organizations, and institutions have been targeted for retribution since Trump took office, an average of more than one a day. \u00a0Some were singled out for punishment, others swept up in broader purges of perceived enemies. \u00a0The count excludes foreign individuals, institutions and governments, as well as federal employees dismissed as part of force reductions. Four hundred and seventy people potentially going through what you’re going through. \u00a0Can you just give voice to what it’s been like over the last 18 months for you? \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Well, you know, the autocratic playbook says you really need to just try to undermine and remove any individuals who are causing you problems, whether it be in the media, and we’ve seen this happen in the media as well, in the intelligence community and law enforcement, the FBI and other places. \u00a0And so for the last 18 months, clearly, there has been this increasing drumbeat that has focused not just on me but on others, my former colleagues as well, again, with subpoenas and interviews and other types of things that are — you know, they’re using. \u00a0 Again, it’s the abuse of these tremendously powerful authorities, the Department of Justice, where I think every American citizen should be relying on the Department of Justice to protect them, to protect their civil rights, their — the privileges of being an American citizen. \u00a0And I have always thought that the Department of Justice is one of those pillars. \u00a0And what is happening to that pillar of justice, it’s being eroded and corroded by the corruption that is clearly taking place. \u00a0 And so, yes, I have been in the crosshairs of Donald Trump. \u00a0You know, as President Obama says, you know, lives rent-free or sweet free in his — in his head. \u00a0 (LAUGHTER)\u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0And so he continues to throw out my name and Jim Comey’s name and Jim Clapper’s name and others, because… WALLACE: \u00a0Yeah. BRENNAN: \u00a0… you know, he just wants to continue this — this drumbeat of that we were, you know, corrupt. \u00a0We were, you know, abusing our authorities. \u00a0Well, in fact, it’s the opposite. \u00a0And that’s why I’m going on the offensive here. \u00a0I told my lawyers, I don’t want to sit on our hands because if he gets away with — with me, he’s going to continue to do this against others. \u00a0There are individuals, professionals who have given their lives and have sacrificed so much for this country, believing that a president, an administration, is going to do the right thing as opposed to the wrong and corrupt thing. \u00a0 That’s why, you know, enough is enough. \u00a0And that’s why today’s lawsuit, I think, sends a clear signal that I’m willing to fight this on behalf of my reputation and what I did, but also on behalf of so many others who are either currently in those crosshairs or will be soon. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0Let me read a little bit more from the lawsuit, and then I want to come back to what you think your original sin is in — in Trump’s eyes. \u00a0But let me read from the lawsuit first. Justice Department officials have engaged in a variety of inappropriate activities in their attempt to build a prosecutable case on the hollow foundation of these criminal referrals. \u00a0Among those activities have been the following: \u00a0Issuing pronouncements that evince a preconceived belief in Director Brennan’s guilt; making statements that disclose matters relating to open grand jury investigations in apparent violation of federal rule of criminal procedure; reportedly removing or sidelining career prosecutors who have balked at using the criminal process to promote the president’s retribution agenda; engaging in apparent forum-shopping by moving the investigations from federal district to federal district in an effort to find a sufficiently pliant U.S. attorney; and engaging in apparent judge-shopping. \u00a0 They’ve done all those things, and they’ve been reported, and they’ve done them in full view. \u00a0What do you — what would be most beneficial to find the back end of in terms of — of what the record shows? \u00a0Is it that it was directed by Blanche? \u00a0Is it that it was known — knowingly false and in absence of evidence proving any crimes? \u00a0What — what are you hoping that the records bear out? \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Well, I think the Department of Justice, for decades and even centuries, has followed the rule of law. \u00a0And they do things based on not, you know, partisanship or political interests, whatever. \u00a0They’re supposed to be pursuing the law objectively and apolitical, nonpartisan manner. \u00a0And clearly, if, in fact, the Trump administration and Donald Trump and his loyalists are carrying out the Department of Justice responsibilities, again, in this illegal manner and doing it for partisan purposes, that needs to be exposed. \u00a0 It needs to be exposed so that these investigations can be, you know, pushed aside, but also to prevent it in the future from happening. \u00a0Because, again, what is happening behind closed doors, as we see all of the abuses and the corrupt actions on the part of this administration, it is hard to believe that the Department of Justice now is going to be fully exploited, you know, and leveraged by the Trump administration as a way to go after political enemies. \u00a0 So I believe that if these documents are preserved and all the records are preserved, and if it does go, in fact, to an indictment or a trial, in the discovery process, this will come out. \u00a0It will come out exactly just how unethical, illegal, and inappropriate these actions were. \u00a0Because, again, based on everything that we see, as you know, this — this case has bounced back and forth to different jurisdictions because there’s nothing there. \u00a0And I am confident that, again, my role as CIA director in 2016, when we exposed the Russian interference on behalf of Donald Trump, were trying to advance his prospects of getting elected, was exactly the right thing to do. \u00a0 And that assessment has been validated numerous times, including by, you know, a bipartisan Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that was chaired at the time by Marco Rubio. \u00a0And I’ve — I’ve spoken out very publicly against Donald Trump. \u00a0And so, again, it’s — it’s clear that they’re not — they’re not going to let go of this. \u00a0And, again, I’m not going to wait until they have their loyalists firmly ensconced in places that’s going to actually bring these very, very inappropriate, you know, investigations to some type of actual criminal charges. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0What is the original tripwire that you think enrages Donald Trump? \u00a0Because, to your point, Marco Rubio found what the Intelligence Committee assessed to be accurate, that Russia sought to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. \u00a0And I think Putin himself says he preferred, he wanted Donald Trump. \u00a0What is — what is still at issue in the original intelligence assessment? \u00a0Even Ratcliffe, I think, since he got in there, went and, I don’t know, kicked over some chairs and underneath found that the original intelligence assessment was not inaccurate. \u00a0Durham found that it was an accurately — or justifiably predicated investigation. \u00a0And so did Mr. Horowitz, the DoJ IG. What — what is the — what is the illusion of — of a violation that you committed in terms of the actual intelligence assessment that Donald Trump is still mad about? \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Well, obviously, he’s very thin-skinned. \u00a0And he’s fixated on the past. \u00a0And he takes great umbrage at the assessment that said that the Russians were trying to help him. \u00a0We didn’t say that it was because of Russian help that he was elected. \u00a0And he was elected as president of the United States in 2016. \u00a0He took office there. \u00a0But I think this is all part of his rhetoric in terms of the Russia hoax, Russia hoax, and the deep state. \u00a0And so he uses this, and he uses myself and other senior officials from that Obama administration as examples that to try to feed, I think, the — the MAGA base on this. \u00a0 But, you know, it — with all the challenges that we face in the country, with all the problems that we have domestically and internationally, you would think he’d be spending his time and you would think that the departments and agencies of the executive branch would be focusing on what we need to do to help the American people and to address the threats and challenges that we face on a daily basis. \u00a0But, again, Donald Trump fixates on the past to the detriment, again, of the — the welfare and the well-being of the American people. \u00a0 WALLACE: \u00a0Well, we will follow this here. \u00a0And we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about the decision. \u00a0I’m sure from from knowing you, from covering events with you, from covering these last 18 months with you, I’m sure this wasn’t taken lightly. \u00a0So thank you for taking time to talk to us about it today. \u00a0 BRENNAN: \u00a0Thanks so much, Nicolle. \u00a0<\/p><\/blockquote>\n